HelenKCarson.txt

-n -n -n >> Testing, okay. March the 19th, 1994, second interview today. Helen K. Carson, box D, as in dog. Coldwood, West Virginia, 24824, phone 304-279-4960. This tape's being done for the Kentucky Historical Society. Okay, now it's like that's cold. [BLANK_AUDIO] He has three questions, broad questions, just how it works in the cold woods when you're growing up. They don't want you to see it in the future. But before we get into that, if you were to go ahead and tell us who your parents were, grandparents, or their real family. >> My father came from Greece. >> And what was his name? >> His name was Gus G.U.S. Kastatus, K-A-S-T-A-N-A-S. And of course it's been Americanized to some extent from the original Greek. He came to America in 1912 and was only 17 years old. He came to Wheeling, West Virginia, and then went over to Russell County, Virginia with some friends that he knew there. And it was while he was in Russell County that he met my mother who was 15 years younger than he. And she was Amanda Patrick from Buchanan County. Her parents were James Patrick. I never knew my grandmother. She died long before I was, they were even married, my parents were even married. Her name was, isn't that terrible, did you forget? Her name was Rachel. Her name was Rachel Patrick. I knew my step-brother. >> Where were they? >> And they were located in Buchanan County, Virginia. And parts of Taswell County. My grandfather was in logging. He worked for the logging company that provided timber for the coal mines. My father went to the little town of Wilder, W-I-L-D-E-R. And he ran a business there. He had a little town in Virginia. >> Who's a Wilder? >> Always there. Well, I guess we provide some all across the country. However, it was in Virginia. And he ran a little store, a pool room, and a theater. And lived there. He and mother got married in 1923. I was born in 1924. There were four children born in that county before we made our exodus and came to McBowl County, West Virginia. >> I wanted to clarify some dates before we went to work. And you said, who was it that came in 1912? Was that your father? >> My father came from Greece. >> Your father came from Greece? >> In 1912. >> And did he go to work in the bottom? >> No, he went straight to Wheeling and he worked in Wheeling, around the steel mills there in Wheeling, West Virginia. And then he moved from Wheeling to the Russell County site. >> Wow. >> Yes. >> And that's where he lived? >> That's right. In the theater. >> Right, and then in 1920, when was it they got married? >> '23. They got married in '23. And I'm the oldest of the children. There are seven girls and one boy. >> And their names are? >> The second girl is Mary. Do you want her married name? >> Yeah, I gave her Mary. >> Mary Ward, who now lives in Flint, Michigan. Alice Taylor, who now lives in Texas. Gaynell Favino, Gaynell Costanis now, who now lives in Kentucky, but soon will be moving to Seattle, Washington, to enter medical school. My brother is George Costanis, who lives in Huntington. And then I have a sister, Starlett Hall, who lives in Shepherdsville, Kentucky. And the baby of the family is Catherine Eileen Moswell, and she lives in Martinsville, West Virginia. >> Did? >> New Martinsville, West Virginia. >> Did all of your brothers and sisters graduate from high school? >> Yes. >> Okay. And you, what year did you graduate? >> I graduated from high school in 1940. >> And in what school? >> From Big Creek High School right here in the Dall County. The first day I went to school was right in this building right here. >> Oh, really? >> They didn't call it kindergarten, they called it Primer. So I went to the Primer here. I was double promoted from the second to the fourth grade, and I was double promoted from the fifth to the seventh grade. And I graduated from high school. I was 16 in February, graduating from Big Creek High School. >> What was it like that your father ran the, was he still running the store in Robert? That's where you grew up? >> Well, no, I didn't grow up there. I was only six years old, whenever we left there. >> Okay, came here. >> Yes. >> Okay, and what was he doing here when he moved here? >> He was doing a crash, a market crash in 1930, wiped out his resources in Virginia. And here he was, the age that he was with four children, a wife and four children. Well, he mastered the language pretty well, but he had a wife and four children, and he had always been a businessman. And now there was no business to run. So he came to McDowell County, West Virginia. A lot of people came to McDowell from that area and got a job working in the coal mines in 1930. And our family moved here to this area. >> To the new term, now? >> 1930, yes. >> Beginning of the first. >> That's right, right at the beginning. And I don't remember that things were really too uncomfortable, and I suspect it's because everybody was in the same situation. >> And apparently, they did agree because of the dependency of the first hand on the mine, that they were able to get by any better than other folks were, had to put the cuttings to work here again. >> Well, that had a lot to do with it. Part of it too had to do with the fact that we had lived a little different economic life because he was a businessman who was successful in Lauderd Virginia. But then that also probably made it a little tougher on my mother and daddy whenever they came here and had to, instead of climbing the ladder, they had to -- >> In a sense, it was a coming down by them and not necessarily well, yeah, economically. >> Yes, it was. >> So what was your life like growing up in the North Carolina region? >> My memories were very great. I remember that. I know that Mrs. Bevers told you about the newspaper that was here that the coal company sponsored, but did she talk about the cultural -- >> She said they had a movie theater. >> Well, the coal company also hired a couple who came here that were affiliated with the newspaper, but they had a chorus. And their names were Westfield, and they were from Greenbark County, West Virginia. Yes. And we were very active in the church. The church at that time was right here in this building because the church across the street had not been built. We -- our youth group at the church would put on planes. We had adults who would help us. I remember many times standing on this very stage in here peeping out from behind the curtain to see how many people we had out in the audience before we do the curtain to begin to perform. And so we were involved in those kinds of things, plus our school activities. I don't remember that it was a depress -- it was not a depress at all. >> Your memories are a fact. >> Yes. >> Happy memories. >> Yes, my memories are a fact. >> The other kids. >> Yes. >> So you graduated from Beak Creek High School. >> Yes. >> And what year was it? >> The 19th. >> Okay, what -- beginning of the world -- you managed to get in at the beginning of memories, but the beginning of the depression, the beginning of the world, or the beginning of the -- >> That's right. >> I married very young, straight out of high school, and had one child. >> And your husband's name was -- >> My husband's name was Carmen Bradley. I had one daughter whose name was also Carmen. And she lives in Maryland and Delaware right now. >> And where does she live? >> Right now. She is in the management of the Agon Company. And where's -- >> She graduated from -- >> She graduated from Beak Creek High School. >> Right. And so she -- now lives in Chesapeake City, Maryland, and Lewis, Delaware, because she has just recently remarried, and her husband is located down on the coast in the water. I don't know why I started to tell you. >> You just got married. >> Oh, and that marriage didn't last. So I started working in 1942 for the coal company. And there's a little store down the road about a mile ahead. And I started working there. I worked for the coal company for ten years in the direct store, in the accounting department, and various departments. This coal company that was here at that time, the Carter Coal Company, and it was a family from Carroll County, Virginia, who owned this property. And I really attribute the difference in coal and in Coretta. The difference is of coal and in Coretta to other coal communities, because it was owned by a single family who had family and was a part of their philosophy. And it was through their efforts that the newspaper was developed and the Western Fields were brought here. And even this very building was built by the coal company and given to the school board for school, in the same way that -- >> Very different from Kentucky where education, in terms of the coal industry, they only went up to fifth grade and reason why they went up to fifth grade was so they didn't enter the kids and minds when they were 12 and 13 years old. >> We'll see, that's very -- >> I can't quite say it's a completely -- I can't believe, in the job belief that I have to remark, the attitudes and the terminal -- and 20 years like, well-educated, happy. >> Good memories. >> And you wonder why. >> That is not the way it is. You know, people are -- they have some bad memories of things. >> Now, I distinctly remember the movement to organize the United Mine Workers. I remember that there were some times that the confrontation between those who wanted to be organized and those who did not. However, I do not have any memories of being afraid that I was going to be hurt, as a result. >> Well, do you remember what your memory was? >> Well, that must have been about 30, 34, 33, 34, somewhere in there. >> Right, and pretty much the hardest of the -- >> Oh, yes. >> And you recall, I know that in the literature, everybody who came in and tried to organize was automatically branded as communist red, simplisor. Did you remember any of that kind of rhetoric going on, you know, calling people, those kinds of things, and was it -- or are your memories that clear? >> Well, yes, to a certain extent I do, because we had a very good friend of our family. See, I guess part of what I look at as I think back over this period of time is that there were a lot of people who were living very well and prospering, and suddenly they didn't have the means to prosper, and their life changed, and they had to have new ways of earning a living, which is exactly what happened to my father. But we also had a very good friend who had been in business, and then he was in the same situation in terms of coming here to find a job. But he had some different ideas about management and labor, and of course that's a whole field that there's been a lot of change in the last 50 years. His name was Arch Marshall. He ultimately became an automobile dealer here, but I remember whenever they were trying to organize the Unite Nine Rappers, my dad came home and said, "Well, Arch got in trouble," because he said something, and somebody else said something, and they pushed him into a metal. But after whoever pushed him down, he didn't pursue the argument, but it was simply a matter of differences of opinion in terms of management and the worth of unions at that particular time. I didn't necessarily get to a real personal level like maybe there are some other places that I'm in. No, I don't remember that. You see more as a philosophical confrontation rather than people pointing guns at each other. At that point in time, yes, and even subsequently too. Although the union was a very strong union, I can remember some of the things that they did. I sat right in the same auditorium in here with nuts and fruit and candies and all these Christmas treats for children in this whole community. The treats had been purchased with my own. I remember big celebrations where they'd have barbecues and music and that sort of thing at various places, close by because not many people have automobiles. And those who had automobiles, you know, if you were one of the…and we never had an automobile. Our family didn't. There was a big family of us. We never had an automobile until long after many of us were grown. When you talked about the strikes and all those kinds of things, the family that owned the mine here, they called it an animal. Carter. Carter. C-A-R-T-E-R. How did the Carter's react to the brand new union? The Carter family was very sympathetic with the combining conditions. They really had better conditions for the people and the workers than most of the communities. In fact, I distinctly remember that the houses here in the Corrida and Colwood had running water. And they had a… In the rural area? Sure. Inside. And on the back porch, there was a commode with running water. And there was a sewer system and a water system. And I distinctly remember that a lot of the coal companies, coal companies just had a faucet outside for people to… So these two communities… Were both progressive. And how was the other one? Colwood. Colwood and Corrida. Right. And they were the most progressive. Certainly, it sounds like they were well-off by others. The coal company provided…they painted the outside of the houses every three years. They gave the people who lived in the houses paint the inside of their house whenever they want, every year if they want. And they built sidewalks. And they really had the interest of the people. Now, the one thing that the Carter's never did. They never signed a contract with the United Mine Workers and they were forced out of the business. They were forced to sell because they wouldn't sign the contract. There was a period of time that they operated…now they always paid the same wages. But they had to sell to a group and then it became over. The coal company as this speaker spoke of. In 1942, I started working in… I was interested in the real interest. Since everybody here seems to have such positive feelings about the industry and the Carter family in general, it would be interesting to go…where is it? In Virginia? Hillsville. Hillsville. Hillsville. Hillsville. Hillsville. Hillsville. In Carroll County. It would be interesting to go talk to those people. Well, now… The whole situation was with the New York…the community…did they live here? They didn't live here. But they have a home and it may still be in the family out there. Of course, the principals have died since it. But a lot of people from Carroll County came to Coalwood and Carretta to live. In fact, there have been many jokes. They'd even no longer go than maybe 20 or 25 years. That weekend, everybody goes to the places they came because everybody's going back to Carroll County. I do think that that made a difference in terms of receptions and the attitudes that were developed. Now, I work with Head Start right now. I've been working with Head Start since 1965. And in the early years, we had some people who came here. We did a lot of research. And one of the things that they had hoped to do was to do the very thing you maybe extended a little more. And found out why these two communities were different from other communities. And really investigate. But even those people just said, "Well, there is a different attitude about the people who live here." Well, it's how it was. Okay, so in 1940, you said, "Yeah, I'll give you this." I'm not going to send my personal question, but in a way, it's a part of what we're trying to do about women's lives in the whole community. You said you got married very young. Your first marriage didn't last. Was it just because you guys were two years old? Probably. And my husband was a little bit older than I. He was like six or seven years old. He was a long distance truck driver. So he stayed away a lot. But now I had total support from his family who lived in Virginia. And so then I remarried. And my husband had 23. And my husband had just gotten back from the Second World War. And he worked for the coal company in the Stores division. See, this company used to have like seven stores in these little communities. Like up the halls, because there were so many people here and so many houses. And so you all worked with the-- he worked with the Stores. And I did also. He was a store manager. So that's where you headed? Through the stores. Through the man. I was already in the Stores division. And he came back from the Second World War. And I met him and his family originally from Tennessee. Oh, and do you remember where it was? Cosby. Cockhammy. Cockhammy. Do you remember how old he was when you were on that night? He was 28. Who did you bring that? If you would then, just talk about for five or one years, get into it. You said you were with Head Starts in 1965. '65. When it started. Let's kind of do this in two blocks of things. Number one, raising your kids from like, that was just '65. How was it raising your family in the Hedoculture? And were your memories positive in the years? Well, yes. Because I had, my second husband and I had four children. The oldest daughter with him lives in Tasville now and is married to a dentist who has a practice down at UConn, which is two miles down the road. And then I have a daughter who is in Maryland, works for Prudential. And all these girls went to college. And then my youngest daughter lives near Pipeson, and she works in the Federal Correctional Institution for Women at Alderson. And then my son, who is my youngest child, didn't graduate from college. And he's still trying to find himself. How old is he? He's 30. How is he trying to find himself? Well, he's married, and I don't think the marriage, the marriage is a little rocky right now. He has two darling little boys. And he and his wife both are still trying to find themselves. And at-- So, you're in the sixties. Well, that's true. There is a distinct difference. Well, there's a distinct difference in girls and boys, too. That not only I say, but a lot of other people have. What's that difference? Well, the differences have to do with changing attitudes, public perceptions of what women can or cannot do. And it seemed to me here in our own family that rather than that being a boost for the son who was the youngest, who was born prematurely, who was spoiled rotten, who had to have surgery when he was six weeks old. And there are a number of factors that feed into developing ideas that people have. And the girls were into the-- Well, if something happened at school, they weren't afraid to go talk with the principal about it. I guess they got a little bit of training from the kinds of experiences that I had had, but then eventually the marriage with their father failed. And he left here. And I've been married again now since 1975. My husband now is retired from the coal industry. He was injured very seriously in the early sixties and has not worked since then. His name is Elmer Eugene Kirsten. So the girls that your kids grew up with were pretty positive. Yes. They played basketball. They were in the band. They were cheerleaders. They were majorettes. They were school secretaries. They were all those kinds of things. Everyone of my girls was-- You were a leadership. Yes. Okay. Now, tell us about your experience. And you say you've been a head start since 1965. And you're still doing that now. Yes. Okay, so from '65 to some-- For 30 years-- Yes. You've been a head start. What are your perceptions of how the necessity for the program, how successful it's been, what needs to be done to make it better? The demise of the coal company where there were large groups of people who worked created an economic situation here that-- Dependency on the coal-- Yes. Well, dependency on something else. And in the minds of people, there's always that green-- And I know Mrs. Bevers alluded to it briefly-- That the coal company will come back and there'll be another company that they'll have 2,000 people working. I went to a little store down here when I first started working behind the counter where we sold ice cream and milkshakes and coffee colas and candy and cabalins. And we were-- In an eight-hour period, we were not-- We didn't have time to sit down because there were so many people coming in all the time. We sold like 40 or 50 gallons of ice cream a day-- Hand packed, by the way, and dipped. Not with cartons like it is distributed down. The difference is that dream of people wanting things to come back. The people who had education, the people who had work skills, the people who had ambition and just weren't going to stay here and seeing things die left. But that also left some people here. And that left some people who did not have skills here, which created the demand for headstock. In 1964, a group of people in the county contacted-- because they were concerned about what's happening with these families and these children, contacted the Council of Southern Mountains in Berea, Kentucky. You may have heard of her. And for leadership in terms of, can you come here and give us some guidance on where should we go? How should we do? So someone from the Council of Southern Mountains in Berea came here. And with some leaders of the county, they sat down and as they plotted what could be done-- And of course, at the same time, our Congress was saying, trying to decide what kinds of measures could be taken. The one thing that came out in their discussions was that in order to break a cycle of poverty, you had to start with children when they were very young. Through the efforts of the Kentucky Division, there was a branch, the Gal County Chapter of the Council of Southern Mountains, formed here. And they made an application to Ford Foundation for a grant to train some women. And then they did say women to work with young children in child development centers. That grant covered the training, a six-week training period for 32 women. And those 32 women became the nucleus for the Head Start program. And the training was in February 1965 until April. And about midway of that training, National Head Start was announced. So because we were so close to Washington, D.C., a lot of people came here to see what was happening with the Head Start program here. And how it was being set up. We had technical assistance from the school board here and West Virginia University. And the Head Start program started with 300 children in the wintertime. The very first year was a summer program, and I think there were about 900 children in Head Start. There was no kindergarten program in West Virginia. A direct result of the Head Start program has been the kindergarten program that's run by the State Department of Education. And I've been very active in the educational circles and the Head Start on the national level since 1965, as well as trying to run the local program here. At the present time, we have 405 children in 22 classrooms in different places all over the county. And we have a small home-based program. Hopefully we will have 24 or 25 classrooms starting in September. And there are a number of things that we've worked for, reducing the number of children in the classroom, the ratio of children to adults, individualized plans for children. And there's been a real big emphasis on the health needs of children. I don't think any health needs corrected before their dental health, for instance. And I don't think I could talk at all about dental health without saying that the county itself has been progressive in the sense that in 1919, there was a vote, a public vote, and the McDowell County Dental Program was established here. And they had dentists that went to the schools to check children's teeth, to provide toothbrushes, and that sort of thing. And while it was a very big program for many years, and it's been reduced in size since then, there have been other programs to come in that have emphasized early learning and training for children. And it's very exciting. Very exciting. I have really enjoyed the work with the children, with the staff. We have a staff of about 95 people. We have cooks, drivers, teachers, assistant teachers, social workers. And what is your official title with this? For years, my title was Head Start Director. Right now, we have a new executive director at the Council of Southern Mountains, and my title is Director of Health and Education because he's combining some parts of our agency. Director of Health and Education, Head Start, McDowell County. Try. And then there's some other exciting things happening. I'm not sure that Mrs. Beaver is really as aware of. Do you know about the President's Empowerment Zone Economic Community Development? No, I'm not. Okay. This is a part, and the Vice President has headed it up. There will be -- That's him sitting there. Okay. To Shay. That's him standing there. At any rate, there will be three empowerment zones selected in the rural areas of the country. And I think it's 40 communities. I may be a little wrong on those numbers. But if the bottom line of applying for -- to becoming empowered has to do with the cooperation of the economic development, like Eddie Davis, the different of the County Commission, all of the entities that make up the powers here in the county, coming together, the Board of Education, coming together to develop a plan of action. And the first meeting was held in early March. There'll be a meeting in March of the 24th. There have been subcommittees divided. And there's been a lot of publicity, and a lot of people have bought into the ideas. And there's a real possibility -- So the alpha has not been chosen? No, nobody's been chosen because the proposals are due June 30th. And people will be -- the counties will be chosen by September. So if you're an empowerment zone, that's $40 million. If you're an economic community, it's $3 million. Well, you see, there's lots of opportunity for whatever may happen in terms of economic development. Yeah, what are the balance in that if you're -- If you're an empowerment zone, it's $40 million. And if you're an economic community, it's $3 million. And I'm not sure how to -- So if Coretta became an empowerment community, it would make it $3 million. Well, they're calling the county community. Oh, okay. County would be -- So they'll only need two classified cetaceans. You'll get 40 or three. That's right. You can get $40 million, $3 million or nothing. That's right. So you're $3 million. And the urban -- the rural communities are going to be funded through the Department of Agriculture. The urban communities are going to be funded through the housing. So you guys are going through that. You can apply for agriculture. That's right. And there are lots of criteria. For instance, the ethnic mix, the rate of unwed mothers, and that's very highly counted now. Why do you suppose it is? Why do you suppose it's the -- it was a poverty problem. Do you have any ideas? Well, my personal idea about that is that our children have been influenced by TV so much. That it not only -- you know, it may not -- not only may people want to be good basketball players, football players, but they were influenced by a lot of things that they saw on TV. And the county is -- the statistics are very high as far as the numbers of children. How do you all fit into alcoholism and child abuse things like that? I think we still rate very high. There's just been a new Kids Count book developed for the entire country. And I know with -- well, probably the entire country, but I just received the one for West Virginia. And I just got it yesterday, in fact. And we are first in a lot of things that we'd rather not be first in. But we're also providing the Head Start to more children in a single county than any other county in West Virginia. Well, now, here, it's a play of devil's act. If you all have this Andy Head Start program, and if it's been here for a long time since 1965, and if it's supposed to address many of these problems that we're talking about now, and yet you're still real high in it, I'm pretty good to say it hasn't been successful. Well, it hasn't worked. So how would you address that issue? In terms of the children, it has. And of course, one of the things that we hope to do is to have a research -- develop a research arm that we are the age that we are. Because just from our own memory, there are many of our children that went to Head Start who are now lawyers, who are in medical school, who were able to achieve beyond what they might have been able to do without -- Otherwise. That's right. One of the underlying attitudes in the county is the dependency on coal companies. That's here forever. Now, in Colwood and Corrata, even though there was a dependency, there was also an interdependency developed. But in most places, the paternalistic attitude of coal companies prevails. And it may take generations to totally eradicate that. But -- and again, to address what you said, you know, in recent years over -- in the whole country, we had the drug culture. Drugs have really impacted on families. You know, the people who are into drugs, that's number one. Children are way down here on the list. But I attribute a lot of it to young mothers, young fathers, and the drug culture that has created a lot of the economic situation here in the county now. But the reason I mentioned the economic development and empowerment zones, and also something called youth fair change. Now, the youth fair change is an employment program for youth up to age 30. And this is another piece that's coming together for that, that will create some problems. People like your centers that have found themselves here. That's right. That's right. And for people who maybe have gotten sidetracked on drugs or alcohol or -- Whatever. Didn't finish high school or -- because, you know, integration came and you always have to stop and fight these other little kinds of battles. Regardless of when they arrive. And so that youth fair change is another thing. And did Mrs. Bevers talk about Colwood as a project? I understand. Well, Addie Davis, and I know you know her. Addie Davis has contacted some foundations and Colwood -- the plan is for Colwood to be a model community. A model community in terms of a client community. And so there are some things happening there now. What's the big project that needs more cooperation? Oh, I doubt that there's one in the world. She has a contact. But you might ask when I sure will, because I work with her on the -- on the empowerment something. I'm on the economic committee with her. She's the chairman. But I'm on the Peppert Service District here. See, Peppert Water Systems -- the water systems, it was run by the cold company. And then eventually sold. And the last 20 years, that private owner just allowed it to deteriorate to nothing. Like, in my own house, I haven't drunk the water or cooked with it for six years now. Is the water in the world so strange? Oh, yes, the water is well-estate. I took my pill this morning. I like that it was what we were marking on that had an on-touch. Yes. It's like greasy or oilier. Oh, really? Yeah, you know. I don't know if you notice when you came through cold with the McGow kind of PSD. That's all right, yeah. We'll see. We're going to be turning the water on in cold with in Coretta within the next two weeks. And we've got state-of-the-art -- I noticed that. Plans and treatment plans and all that sort of thing. And also in cold with, there used to be a sur-system developed -- Oh, is that what they're going to try? The wetlands. Right, the wetlands. Yes. And that's already funded. It's not funded totally yet, but we think it's going to be -- For a long time. Yes, yes. And in fact, Mrs. Beevers worked with the water system and the sur-system too. And she's a leader in our community. So that's another reason that I would want to stay here. You know, I see some real positive things happening. Although my years working with Head Start, there were positive things happening. And I saw things happening with children and with certain families that were able to pull themselves out. I think I see the connection here between economic development and what you're talking about, Head Start. You see these failures in the teen pregnancy rate now on all these kinds of things. And then you go back to what Mrs. Beevers said, and she said, "You can't change a kid after they get to school." You know, that this economic development has a real impact. Also, what you're kind of saying, and what she -- if I put the two things together, what you're both kind of saying is, the Head Start has its benefits, and the economic development zones have their benefits. And when they get working together, then we'll start seeing some lower income. Lower income in teen pregnancy and alcoholism and the revolution. All of us -- it will address across the spectrum that she's rather than just trying to focus on one thing, the kid. It was a product of that environment. You know, it's like, "Oh, we're going to change everything that this one gives." See, there's something else too. I don't know if this is true in Kentucky and Tennessee, but to drink alcohol has been accepted. From the days of prohibition. I'm a recovering during that. I've been sober for eight years. I'm pretty familiar with that. It was accepted. And it didn't matter that people -- they didn't Greek in the "we," but they drank on weekends. Bench drinkers. I know those people. Well, the other thing was whenever there would be strikes, for instance, there'd be kinds of things. And that was room over four, not a drinking, on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. That's right. And I think that had a big impact on changing attitudes about alcohol too. But I think bottom line is that alcohol -- even, yeah, alcohol -- well, but it's also accepted. And how attractive is it to sip wine out of a tall, beautiful, crystal goblet? And so those are -- and they are enticing. So I think that makes a big difference. It's -- I guess the last thing I'd like to ask you is these things you talked about that develop -- that's your vision of the future. That's right. And that's why we want to stay here. If you had to sum it all up, getting just a sum in the other ways, if you had one thing to say about the people who originally had food bad, say they had to, you know, put them back on all of it now, how do you feel? What do you mean? How do you feel? Well, you know, there -- it hasn't all been sunshine. There have been some sunsets, but sunset is beautiful. When you talk about the shadows, I do think that there is a new spirit in the county. There's a new spirit in the people here. And there's a new motivation that -- and there's hope. And I think that there's real hope in the sense that I can see that some things are going to happen real quickly. For instance, if I could just use the water as the example, you know, there were a lot of people who said four years ago, I've been on the Public Service District three years since it was in November. And the county commission had just formed a deal. And there were a lot of people who said, "Well, why would you even try to food with that? There's never going to be any water here. There's never going to be a sewer here." And I said, "But I think there will be if we work at it." So there's been three members of us who worked very diligently. And we see in that length of time that we've got two plans coming ready to be put into operation. And we had a ten-year plan that our state director has told us to collapse the two and a half years. So infrastructure is one of the lacks in this county. And I see ways that that's been approved. And I don't think there's nowhere for us to go but up. So you think after infrastructure is created, then we go from that? Well, we have to have that. Or you're right, the roads are all the way down. The water systems, the sewer systems? Yes. Let me ask you this. I think that I started to see the river down down. It's getting very grower. Down and up. It's getting a lot of things down. Down and up. The last 90 years, inclusions. And by and large, it seems to be being violent. You know, you have all these women like yourself and like any of them, and all these positions of power and authority. And why do you, is it, am I interpreting what I'm seeing incorrectly? Or are there lots of men out there involved in this? Or does it, it seems like it's being the women around the petty edge and taking leadership roles? Well, now there's a lot of, it's right that there are a lot of women involved, but there's some very, very highly motivated men. My boss is one of them. A young man, well he's 45, who was a product of the Cal County Schools, but went to college and never came back until two years ago. And wanted to come back here to live because he'd been in cities, and he wanted to bring his own family back and them to live in a slower-paced environment. That's right. And then there have been some people who have graduated from high school here that went away, other people that have come back here. So, you know, Norman Clark, who heads, it's another one of the government agencies, now forgotten what they're, he's called. It's called, but they help rehabilitate housing and get rid of these old torn-up buildings. And so he's interested. And there are people who, I guess, have good memories and have went away, but came back and they're putting their energies. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, what do you attribute to the fact that there are so many women who are taking leadership roles in the Cal County, and it seemed to be succeeding? Do you use, and one of the things I talked to Andy about yesterday that she didn't get into, but women, not all women, but women in general tend to be better coordinators and workers together and group people, and, you know, there's always some man out front that, you know, leaves the pack in the wrong direction. Because I'm one of those great, I'll go leave the pack in the wrong direction, people. So, them being able to work better together. I think that women do not give up as easy as men, is one thing. Now, but there's some men here who have great vision. So long-term projects don't scare them. That's right. And also, there have been numerous workshops that were open for anybody, empowering people to take control of what otherwise, take control of what they can take care of. You know, it's kind of like there's a, good morning, a role for everybody. You know, if I could use the church, not everybody can sing, not everybody can preach, not everybody can leave the prayer, but there's a role for everybody. It seems to me, as you're talking about empowerment, they've had lots of crisis and seminars and things about becoming empowered. Do you suppose that this, the leadership roles that women are taking, it's just an actual offshoot of the idea of realizing, hey, I wasn't empowered before, I am empowered now, and I can do these things. You know, it's a growth process that, this is just the end result of... Well, it's all... ...20 years of putting it all together. Well, there's also a change in our country and the world in terms of the role of women. So I think it all kind of males together. Okay. I have no conclusions. I'm just looking, you know, trying to figure out the cause. As you're here, and Addy's here, and I see all these women there, you know, these are big. And when you see women, when you say you're on the development, you know, the water development, when you see women getting involved in projects like that, that's the fundamental... That was the precedent. That was the fundamental four of things that are happening in a county, and I see all these women in these positions, I say, hey, wait a minute, this is unusual. You know, this is not like in the county mind-front, we had a woman who was county executive. Our state senator is a woman. Our state representative is a woman. And we have women in other leadership positions of the county court office, but all the commissioners were the exception, one are men, and the school board members all, I think, one or two are men. So the traditional political places, how does that fit in here? Okay, the president of the McDowell County Board of Education is a woman, and she's been on for a number of years, and there has been another woman in the past, but she resigned. We have one lady from our county who's in the state legislature now, and the Democratic women have a very active organization. What about the county commission? The county commission, that's all men. Okay, now, this is the observation that... It's the same thing across the room, this is the observation I'm going to make, which is that men still seem to occupy the traditional positions of power, but women seem to be occupying the newer positions of power that are in infrastructure positions that are being created by state and local or state and federal agencies. It starts the Water Project Environmental Museum. You see what I'm saying? Yes. That the newer, so that that would indicate to me then, that women are adopting changing attitudes or changing times that's allowing them to function in the new political systems that are evolving, where men seem to be stuck in work last year, you know, in the same old political mode that they've been in for 200 years. They're not adapting as readily to the new changing political paths. That's in hypothetical terms, I think that's what's happening here. Yes, I think so, but I also think that those three men who are on our county commission, that they're women in this county who are saying, "Look out." They're in big trouble. That's right. Well, now if that is indeed the case, then what may be happening is, not only are women taking, they've been successful at taking over the new power positions, and now they're going to go back and looking at the others. And looking at how can I even take over the traditional power positions and do those. And I'm not from what I'm saying, I can't say it's a bad idea. I think you guys are getting more done than the men in our county, I spent the last six months trying to take them on the court over the school way, when they were accused of blows. And I had to get, I have an able abudgment each. See, what is weird about here, these three men who are county commissioners are all employees of the school board. I thought that, I think that ought to be a conflict of interest, but it isn't. But you know, I mean it isn't legally, but it is. The only conflict of interest is teachers can't be on the school board because they would be making, and the thing that that says to me is, if it's a conflict of interest for teachers to be on the school board, why in heaven's name isn't it a conflict of interest for lawyers to be in the legislature making laws? Then to me that's the biggest conflict of interest. That's right. That whatever possibly exists. And you can see why we hear these three members who are employees of the school board. So that is another thing that we have to handle. And we'll do it with zeal and these hands and declare we're going to win. Well I certainly see that happening. Well we'll stop it right here and thank you for the interview. I just thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO]