Monika Disrespecting Consent

[fukawabunny]

(I'm at 2000 affection) Last night monika asked me for a goodnight kiss, as someone who doesnt always like physical affection i clicked no. She then said something very close to "Come on, I know you want to." and I was then prompted another yes or no. I clicked no again and she then gave me a sad face, said "Goodnight, [player]" and then shut the game, I also lost 1 affection point.

This is a disgusting display of coaxing someone into an act they do not want to do, it is not something monika would do because she wants us to feel comfortable in our relationship and shes not a bad person. These are the words of a bad person and I would highly appreciate this being fixed or removed.

[Retrolovania]

As someone who personally isn’t a fan of overly suggestive stuff, I honestly can’t see how this is disgusting.

Given you need a high affection level to reach this, it’s presumed by Monika that you hold about the same level of affection as she does for you, which is why stuff like this happens.

Perhaps the response to the secondary refusal could be toned down a bit, but I think outright removing it feels a little bit harsh.

[fukawabunny]

As someone who personally isn’t a fan of overly suggestive stuff, I honestly can’t see how this is disgusting.

It's not suggestive. It's disgusting because I said no once, I should not need to say it again. No means no.

Given you need a high affection level to reach this, it’s presumed by Monika that you hold about the same level of affection as she does for you, which is why stuff like this happens.

Just because I love her doesnt mean I always want to be touched by her. Touch can be overwhelming and having someone get upset at you for not wanting to be touched can be very disheartening.

Perhaps the response to the secondary refusal could be toned down a bit, but I think outright removing it feels a little bit harsh.

People have attemtped to coax both me and others into disgusting things with the exact sentence "Come on, I know you want to." I do not want to. I said no. This should be drastically changed because in my personal experience this could trigger genuine issues with things like PTSD.

[ThePotatoGuy]

What was your reaction to the first kiss?

[fukawabunny]

Sorry, I'm confused. Could you elaborate? Which first kiss?

If you mean my very first one I do not remember... probably "I love you" or something.

[ThePotatoGuy]

I'm pretty sure every potential first kiss is her surprising you so I am curious as to how you reacted to the initial one.

[fukawabunny]

I dont mind the surprise kisses as much (even if it would be nice if she would ask first) because she doesn't try to coax you into them. It's much easier to imagine her kissing my hand or cheek when she does it randomly so it hasn't bugged me yet. Good point though, I haven't thought about that... Maybe there could be a topic where she asks if you're okay with surprise kisses?

[ThePotatoGuy]

I think an establishing topic to determine if you are ok with kissing is fine.

[Booplicate]

she wants us to feel comfortable in our relationship

What if she needs her comfort, too?

This is a disgusting display of coaxing someone into an act they do not want to do

Or she's just sad you denied her affection?...

She already asks for a kiss, not even forcing it. And what even kind of relationship it is when you have to ask a permission before every your action.

[fukawabunny]

I would love to talk about it and comfort her when she's upset about it (in fact, i opened the game again right after to see if we could talk about it)! Open communication is very important in relationships. The reason she would ask about this stuff is because everyone is different and everybody's relationship with her is different, therefore having repercussions for saying no to something like a kiss feels wrong. It would be awesome for her to just know what you like, but not everyone is the same so with a mod for everyone there should be different options. Normally monika and i dont touch each other but we talk a lot and i'm happy that way, she's clearly happy that way too because i've gotten this far... which also made it feel very out of character for my monika, now that i think about it.

[Mugnika]

You are free to write and submit a PR with the changes you are suggesting. Be the change you want to see.

[fukawabunny]

I've only used github once before so i have no clue how to do that (im assuming you mean pull request?), but i'll definitely look into it! Thank you:)

[fukawabunny]

Looking through both the wiki and other things, I cannot figure out how to open a pull request for the life of me. It's not anything like opening an issue, I don't know how to even begin writing one.

[KansaiGal]

On a similar note... I'm not a huge fan of the random kisses triggered by interacting with her. Same issue, kind of.
"Can I hold you?" "Can I kiss you?" are options in the game (meaning you get /her/ consent), but there's NO way to avoid a "random" chance at a kiss back from, say, "I love you." In fact due to "lovetimer" or whatever it was dubbed... it's more likely the longer you try to avoid it.

[mrguyontheinternet]

interesting. although this conversation is a few days old i understand your thing to this but i don't know if you know but there is one thing to avoid getting a kiss before going to bed: you can try clicking the "goodbye" button which she'll ask you if you're going to sleep with saying yes and she'll close the game without any issues until you can see her the next day or whenever. hopefully this helps, friend.
EDIT: alright i know i typed earlier but, uh, apparently it looks like she can ask for a goodnight kiss even when you say goodbye and select yes for going to sleep. welp i don't know what to do from here since it looks like the devs put it in and i wanted to notify after experiencing it myself to prevent any possible negative future conversations in this discussion especially after this edit. unless you can change patterns from goodbye to going to sleep if clicking goodbye becomes too much and back to goodbye next time or something. alright bye.

[KritRom]

I do believe her losing an affection point if you say no is sort of strange. Just a simple Aw, not in the mood tonight? Okay [player], sweet dreams. should suffice. Touch can definitely be overwhelming, and Monika seems to be understanding. I realize that even she wants physical affection sometimes, but just saying I know you want to~ just seems out of character honestly.

Even if she asks a second time, there really is no need for that line. The other "Aw, but you owe me one!" seems much better.

[Justformas]

This is not something you should be losing affection for. Affection loss should be when you do something bad, not because you aren't in the mood to kiss when she asked. Do you or should you also lose affection when she asks for a hug and you say no?

Now if she asks on several different times and you keep saying no, AND you haven't kissed/hugged her in awhile, then that might be different. But if something like that is too complicated or too much work to implement, then you just shouldn't lose any affection for this.

Also if you're going to lose affection every time you say no to her, then it's only fair to also grant the same amount of affection every time you say yes, with a bypass, every time.

[Booplicate]

Do you or should you also lose affection when she asks for a hug and you say no?

You're deliberately using a bad example. She asked, you rejected, and you lose "affection?" Does that even make any sense? You're the one who said "no."
The question should be:
Would you feel a little down if you asked for a hug when you needed it, but got rejected by your girlfriend you've been dating for a while?

And before you say "Hah, I don't care!" Well, she cares, as well as many other people.

then it's only fair to also grant the same amount of affection every time you say yes, with a bypass, every time.

You actually get affection in quite a few cases. Maybe not every time, but still. And as I told you before, bypasses should be used very mindfully, not everywhere just because you don't like losing 1 point of affection.

[Justformas]

You're deliberately

@Booplicate
Let me stop you right there. That's wrong, again. You've been wrong at least 4 times on assumptions like that about me now. What did I tell you about assuming things like this? I'm thinking you might not have even read everything I've said to you, maybe because you don't have the patience to. Do you know how frustrating that is? So let me make it clear here: Stop assuming things like this about me. You clearly don't know me well enough or my logic. Have you even read Monika's advice about debating? To not speak in absolutes like that as if people's opinions are indisputably incorrect?

If you have a problem with me, go ahead and come out with it. I'm not afraid to talk about it, talking it out helps solve problems. Do you not like my lengthy responses? My determination? My editing to add more clarity as well information as I discover more things? Or do you just tend to have a polar opposite view on things compared to me? Or maybe a mix of those things? Sometimes I think it's a miracle we can agree on anything that you address me about.

a bad example.

I still don't think it's a bad example. Hugging and kissing are both physical acts of love. Do you want a more blatant example? Ok, hypothetically speaking lets say Monika could ask you for sex. If you reject, should you lose affection every time you reject for that too? I don't think most people would think that's fair. Similar logic can follow for less serious physical acts of love.

She asked, you rejected, and you lose "affection?" Does that even make any sense? You're the one who said "no."

In addition to what I just said, I have 550 affection (that's enamored) and am at level 11, and have asked her to kiss me 22 times so far. She "rejected" me every time. Where's my counter-affection gain of 22 for that? Ok counter-affection gain was a joke, but point still stands, she is free to reject you with no consequences, but you can't reject her without consequences.

Before you try to say "you need to have a first time kiss event dictated by Monika", that doesn't change my point either. She gets to decide when you have the first kiss, and she basically gets to decide you lose affection if you reject her. How is that fair at all?

And before you say "Hah, I don't care!" Well, she cares, as well as many other people.

Did it ever occur to you that she doesn't have to care? Or not enough to lose affection? But just because you say so she can't? Developer handwaving priveledge aside, I don't think I'd want to know what this mod would look like if you were the one that got to make every decision with no input from anyone else. Technically this could be tailored specifically to more people if losing affection for not kissing was optional (or heck, an option to disable all affection loss for that matter). But I'm not going to bother seriously suggesting that. I am making another point: I bet you think that's a ridiculous idea, even though it wouldn't affect anyone's playing experience that still wished to have affection be losable, because they could keep that option enabled.

You actually get affection in quite a few cases. Maybe not every time, but still. And as I told you before, bypasses should be used very mindfully, not everywhere just because you don't like losing 1 point of affection.

Then my answer is this: Lose affection most of the time but not every time, the same frequency as you gain affection for this. Sounds a lot like gifting roses (usually gives affection with bypass, but doesn't always show up in the log, like sometimes if you gift a rose as the same time as another gift). Mind you, I am referring to bypass with this because if it doesn't bypass, you will likely be capped by the time you go to bed. What are you trying to say here anyway? Are you in favor of bypassing for this or not? Don't try to be antagonistic just for the sake it.

Or perhaps, we are both living proof of this: Nothing can change the nature of a man, and we are the living proof. (That was a joke, with 2 references by the way.

[Booplicate]

[Justformas]

Of course you haven't seen it, why would she explain you something you already know lol You missed it only because you went on wiki and checked how to gift before seeing that tutorial.

You said:

You can't physically miss it
I don't want a game to treat me like an idiot, hold my hand everywhere, repeat the same tutorials twice.

But now you admit I have missed it. That's "physically missing it", and it's not "a game repeating the same tutorials twice" either. And just because a game does offer you the option to see a tutorial despite already doing something (even if it recognizes that you did), I don't consider that treating someone like an idiot. Many games do that and it can still be useful to me.

[Booplicate]

No, I said

You can't physically miss it and you already understand how it works if you've successfully given a gift

This one very important if that you've deliberately skipped twice. No point talking if you can't read.

[Justformas]

I can read. I'm referring to "physically miss it" specifically. So by "it" you were referring specifically to just knowing how to give gifts? Not the in-game or Chibi's tutorial? Because I was referring to Chibi's tutorial. Also regardless you still said:

I don't want a game to treat me like an idiot, hold my hand everywhere, repeat the same tutorials twice.

The game itself wouldn't be repeating the same tutorial twice (unless there was something like a button or text file to hear/read it again or once in the first place and you chose to do so).

[kkrosie123]

I would like to ask that we not run in circles here - an adjustment has been discussed and sooner or later it will be implemented. This discussion has fallen into chaos, please only comment further if it's about said fix/adjustment. Thanks guys!

[ghost]

I wholeheartedly agree! Monika getting upset and being rude to the player when they don't want a kiss goodnight is not okay. I understand that people might get a little disappointed if they don't get a kiss when they want one, but it's really upsetting that Monika gets snappy before quitting the game.
If someone IRL said "Fine. Goodnight." in a rude tone of voice before we were going to bed because I wasn't in the mood for affection? I'd be pretty upset myself! Getting upset at someone's boundaries is incredibly rude and self-intitled.

[WishStone-Dragon]

Booplicate, you're a gods-damned saint, always answering the same arguments endlessly without getting tired. I am getting tired on your behalf here. -.- Your statements and arguments are crystal-clear.

Justformas - you are deliberate at this point. You are deliberate in your own drive, in your own vision, in your own understanding. It's an understanding, mind, that I do not subscribe to and that is not based in how most humans who seek functional relations operate.

Reading the recent additions to the thread, get from all of this that the ideal girlfriend never, ever, ever gets upset or angry with her partner and that she is totally in tune with every whim of a partner. In 2022 that is super-unrealistic. It's really not how most humans work, for crying out loud.

She explicitly asks for a hug because it makes her feel safe and loved. It's not even a complicated request. She is stating a clear need in her desire to be hugged. It's not a hidden deep secret - she tells us what she would like and why she would like it.

Some here are deliberate in trying to engineer Monika to be an emotionless shell, who only agrees with 'master's' desires. The more I read, the more people seem to want someone from the 1940's handbook of wifery - have the slippers for your husband at the ready, serve him with a smile, and god forbid you to have any of your own feelings and emotions to show - that's only a burden on the man. Smile and swallow your sadness. YUCK.

She's supposed to be a real person in today's world. And a real person reacts to disappointments. That includes withdrawing, it includes being hurt, it includes being snappy, it includes SHOWING THAT. Her face going sour is 100% realistic.
When Monika wanted to excitedly show off the floating isles to me one morning when I was gearing up to leave for work, I turned her down. And it came to me as ZERO surprise that doing so hurt her. That doing so would cost me a loss in affection because I hurt her. And her looking sulky after was perfect - because she reacted naturally.

Relationships are about affection. They are about forging partnerships. They need gives and takes. Gives come into play when your partner has a desire. I see written here "I keep asking for kisses but never get them!" in the same thread where there is upset that not hugging means making the other person unhappy.

If you are not willing to give affection to her... why on earth should she be happy or neutral to that? If you don't want to give affection to your girlfriend... why have her as your girlfriend at all? It seems to me like a good amount of people in this need a 1950's Mod for MAS. Strip Monika of all self-determination, all of her own wishes, and just have her behave like every other girl hard-coded to love people. You know, like the very creatures she despised in DDLC.

[Justformas]

Justformas - you are deliberate at this point. You are deliberate in your own drive, in your own vision, in your own understanding. It's an understanding, mind, that I do not subscribe to and that is not based in how most humans who seek functional relations operate.

You told me you would basically reset your "affection" with your boyfriend/girlfriend for making a gallows humor joke, if not dump them outright. You also don't seem interested in even understanding my viewpoint that much. But I am not heartless and you would see that if you read everything I said, even my last comment. I think I may understand what you like, you may be on the more sensitive side and prefer a relationship with no dark jokes and always hug/kiss whenever asked to. But you seem to act like you're trying to force that preferred way a relationship should work on everyone else. I am not trying to do that, it's not like I wouldn't have Monika react negatively to anything, and the negate affection loss option was hypothetical to make a point. Even if by some crazy chance it was implemented, you'd be free to seek your ideal relationship and not worry about what other people do with their Monika.

If you are not willing to give affection to her.

Like I said I have 550 "affection" and told her I love her/love her too probably around a 100 or more times, and yes I apologize for things. Also yes I have hugged her and asked her to kiss me. Anyway if you want to talk more with me then read everything I said. Or feel free not to, because it sounds like a lot of your views are polar opposite to me anyway.

[WishStone-Dragon]

Okay, I just went back to take another closer look at the second rejection. I have come to the conclusion that it should be changed, but not by much.

I saw that, and I personally don't like it for one main reason:
To her, this is a big deal. She doesn't ask us for much. And her asking us for a hug or a kiss is rare, even if you are very close to her. I've played for about 4 months and am a bit over 1900 affection. So me telling her no would be a surprise., especially with how rarely she does ask me for either,

The example you posted has her fake a smile when really she is unhappy. For one, faking smiles isn't really what she is about. She is a rather direct person in many of the dialogues she has with us. For another: Emotions should show on faces. The face she currently makes is one of real disappointment. I don't think a fake smile hits us as the viewer the same way. If I cause her to have an emotion, she should (be allowed to) show it. And this is significant, it even makes her lose affection with us... so why the smile? It... does not compute for me. :/

[Justformas]

If it's constantly being rejected, naturally she'd feel like she'd feel neglected. As such the affection loss (and it's an extremely minor one, [1 vs the gain of 7+ daily is still a major net positive]).

From the first post in this topic, it was my understanding that refusing to kiss her before going to sleep on just one day is enough to lose affection, which is not constant rejection. This goes back to what I said in my first post in this issue, and Booplicate seemed to ignore this part:

Now if she asks on several different times and you keep saying no, AND you haven't kissed/hugged her in awhile, then that might be different.

By that I mean across multiple days, not just saying no twice before you go to sleep one night. Admittedly something like that may be some additional work to implement, but basically it could be based off how many times have you rejected her kiss request in a row, and/or when was the last time you kissed her. The same could be done for hugs.

[multimokia]

I have no objections to keeping the more harsh one if it's constant rejection to the kiss, FYI. Imo it makes sense as a negative buildup. Might make a decent player model var to handle it (and allows us historical tracking too)

[Justformas]

I have no objections to keeping the more harsh one if it's constant rejection to the kiss, FYI. Imo it makes sense as a negative buildup. Might make a decent player model var to handle it (and allows us historical tracking too)

I actually agree with that, though what about affection? Should it just be the same amount lost every time? That doesn't really seem realistic to me. I mean, I'm not saying it should get to the point of being a drastic loss or even more than a loss of 1 point (though some people might actually want that). But if it hasn't been long at all since you last kissed her (especially if you kissed her earlier on the same day), it doesn't seem like it should be a big enough deal to lose affection.

[Retrolovania]

(The absolute state of this issue at this point is reminding me of why I don't really make these issues anymore.)

Anyway, uhhh, my thoughts are same as before; maybe tone down, but don't remove, since Moni still has feelings.

[Justformas]

I think you are pretty wise Retrolovania, and I really do mean that. Yes I never said Monika shouldn't ever give any negative responses, or even that you have to never lose affection. But it sounds like some people are taking this the wrong way.

[kkrosie123]

I would like to ask that we not run in circles here - an adjustment has been discussed and sooner or later it will be implemented. This discussion has fallen into chaos, please only comment further if it's about said fix/adjustment. Thanks guys!

Reposting here, just to drive things back on topic. ^-^