Add rendering for emergency=phone

[mmd-osm]

JOSM validator complains about amenity=emergency_phone being deprecated and auto-corrects it to emergency=phone when using the "Fix" button. However, the latter is not rendered by the carto style, thus all emergency phones disappeared from the map in some areas [1] recently.

I'd suggest to also include emergency=phone with the same render rule as amenity=emergency_phone in the carto style.

[1] Example for a recent mass update turning amenity=emergency_phone into emergency=phone: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/19082658

[Rovastar]

The biggest problem with this is that we do not store the emergency tag for osm carto. It is a fairly major database change to add new tags. I imagine this will not be fixed any time soon despite the usefulness/need for this.

[pnorman]

[1] Example for a recent mass update turning amenity=emergency_phone into emergency=phone: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/19082658

If people are doing mechanical edits to change tags on the basis of "depreciated tags", that's wrong. OSM doesn't have a process for depreciating tags.

[matkoniecz]

Adding something to list of deprecated tags in validator (especially with an automatic fix) is exactly this.

[Rovastar]

@pnorman,
To be honest I think we should look at mechanical edits for situations like this. True there are some old school OSMers that are always going to be against (imports and) mechanical edits but doing that just creates a messy database that can quickly out of control.

[dieterdreist]

2014/1/20 Rovastar [email protected]

To be honest I think we should look at mechanical edits for situations
like this. True there are some old school OSMers that are always going to
be against (imports and) mechanical edits but doing that just creates a
messy database that can quickly out of control.

not remotely as quick as with a bunch of mappers doing large scale
mechanical edits (SCNR)

[brycenesbitt]

+1 on a fix for this: both in carto and via a mass retagging to centralize on one emergency phone tagging. I mapped a phone just yesterday and noted it did not show up on mapnik.

[MaZderMind]

mass retagging is never a good idea because it affects each and every user of our data (think about iPhone or android apps, web-searches, all the different map-styles, all database imports on all servers). All of them need to change their data-processing or their database structure and may require a complete planet re-import.

We should not honor such mass retagging by adopting the style early. After all we're also suffering from the same problem.

[matkoniecz]

Passive-aggressive "no honoring of mass retagging" is useless. It is either overall change for good and change of rendering rule is also a good idea, or it is a bad idea - in this case complaining people should start from https://josm.openstreetmap.de/newticket

IMHO this was a correct idea to migrate from absurdly bloated amenity tag as soon as possible, before it will be nearly impossible but it is probably topic for other discussion.

[vincentdephily]

For what it's worth (whatever your take on the retagging may be), emergency=phone currently outnumbers amenity=emergency_phone by 3 to 1.

Supporting the emergency tag in osm-carto would also enable rendering the 186000 emergency=fire_hydrant (althoug I'm not sure we want to render something that the general public is not allowed to use), 1700 emergency=aed/defibrilator (that one seems very worthy of rendering), and a few other values.

[matkoniecz]

fire_hydrant would make sense after introducing additional zoom levels, aed/defibrilator makes sense but there is ongoing tagging debate on this topis.

[SomeoneElseOSM]

Surely, as described, this isn't a bug with the map style at all? If JOSM is suggesting mass retagging (based on a wiki page?) then that's a bug with JOSM, and if JOSM users are making automated edits without going through the documented mechanical edit procedures (or it seems sometimes engaging their brains at all) then that's a "bug" with those mappers.

[brycenesbitt]

@Bulwersator wrote 'mass retagging is never a good idea because it affects each and every user of our data'.
Unfortunately not mass-retagging affects each and every user of the the data, just more slowly.

The advantage of mass retagging is data consumers will quickly figure out that something changed. The downside of course is disruption. Avoiding mass tagging results in a slow rot of the old data, leaving (for example) maps showing half the emergency phones. Clearly neither extreme is ideal. But I rather prefer the retagging, as (post disruption) it puts the map in a better state.

[matthijsmelissen]

Changing tagging standards is a general problem with OSM. I think the underlying cause of this is that we cannot guarantee (and do not require) that people upgrade their rendering/routing rules whenever they update their database. Therefore, it must in theory be possible to render every version of the database with every version of rendering/routing rules.

Perhaps a way to work around this problem:

1. Announce a new way of tagging, but keep using the old tags.
2. Wait some time (6 months? 12 months?) to allow the renderers to incorporate the new tags (in addition to the old tags).
3. Do an automatic or manual retagging.
4. After all tags are retagged and the renderer has loaded the new data, renderers can drop support for the old tags.

So basically the idea is to propose new tagging schemes that only start being valid 6 months in the future.

[dieterdreist]

2014/1/23 brycenesbitt [email protected]

leaving (for example) maps showing half the emergency phones.

well, they could evaluate both tags (with the disadvantage that both tags
will live forever, we see this with highway=footway vs. path and
foot=designated/official).

There is also an example that this might work out on the long run:
bridge/tunnel/oneway=yes/1/true is now consolidated to only yes, but it
took really long

[brycenesbitt]

The lag in the rendering support is also a factor. There's pressure to use obsolete rendering so things show up. amenity=ranger_station is a tiny example, bigger examples abound with shop= where there's pressure to pick a rendered shop tag even if it's not the most descriptive. (See #116 ).

A moderated one-way announce list for data consumers might help. Or an RSS feed of tag changes. But that said mass retagging is a form of notice to data consumers, in a way that gradual re-tagging is not. Anyone doing fuzzy matches on tiger:tlid for example is seeing the data slowly melt away, rather than facing the issue up front.

[matthijsmelissen]

See also https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2816

[matkoniecz]

I hoped that both milestones may be set. Anyway, I think that this one is more suitable. It is not really a new feature, also "3.x - Needs upgrade to mapnik or openstreetmap-carto.style" is more restrictive.

[hajo4]

The old, deprecated "amenity:emergency_phone" are shown on the map,
but "emergency:phones" don't get rendered yet.
See this example.

What's the big problem, why does that take all year ?

Also, when zooming out, the icon for emergency-phone is no longer shown at zoomlevel 16,
while other, less important symbols are still shown, e.g. recycle-bins.

[nebulon42]

Please open a separate issue if you think that emergency phone should be shown at lower zoom levels with some example and explanation.

What's the big problem, why does that take all year ?

The big problem is that the tag emergency=* is currently not present in the rendering database. Thus adding emergency=phone requires a complete database reload which is a major undertaking for a database as large as OSM is - as far as I understand.

[k1wiosm]

Is this going to be done anytime soon?

[pnorman]

As indicated above, it requires a database reload before it can be considered.

[matkoniecz]

@k1wiosm see also #1286

[PolyglotOpenstreetmap]

Maybe we should start double tagging them, like we have to do with public_transport for the coming 20 years.

[maxxer]

emergency=defibrillator are getting widely diffused in Italy and in Europe lately, I think they would be very useful on the map.

[matkoniecz]

@maxxer This is offtopic in this issue. Please comment in existing issue about emergency=defibrillator or maybe create new if there is no issue on this topic.

[SomeoneElseOSM]

To be fair to @maxxer , they were sent here by a rather terse answer at https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/41537/why-aed-defibrillators-are-not-displayed-on-maps and the root cause for the problem is explained above at #318 (comment) .

[nebulon42]

See also #1286 and #1243 for details on the problem and possible solutions.