Render ref on entrance=* nodes

[jidanni]

Shopping center etc. entrance numbers are important to render. If somebody tells us we should go to the McDonald's via shopping center entrance number two and that 2 is not rendered, then we might have to do a lot more walking..

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:entrance

[HolgerJeromin]

Which osm tags do you mean? Can you show us an entrance (osm element) with such a tagging?

[jidanni]

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6593738816

[HolgerJeromin]

This node has the tagging:
entrance=yes
ref=5

This would be quite spammy with some buildings.
We already render addr:housenumber ,addr:housename, addr:unit and addr:flats there (since #4082).

openstreetmap-carto/style/addressing.mss

Lines 33 to 50 in b0bf7c0

	["addr_unit" != null]["addr_housenumber" = null] {
	text-name: [addr_unit];
	}
	["addr_flats" != null]["addr_housenumber" = null] {
	text-name: [addr_flats];
	}
	["addr_unit" != null] {
	text-name: [addr_housenumber] + " " + [addr_unit];
	["addr_housename" != null] {
	text-name: [addr_housenumber] + " " + [addr_unit] + "\n" + [addr_housename];
	}
	}
	["addr_flats" != null] {
	text-name: [addr_housenumber] + " " + [addr_flats];
	["addr_housename" != null] {
	text-name: [addr_housenumber] + " " + [addr_flats] + "\n" + [addr_housename];
	}
	}

[jidanni]

Well just like subway exit number one and subway exit number two, shopping center entrance/exit numbers are vital also. That's why they are very clearly numbered on all multiple exits subways' walls... shopping centers are no different.

This particular shopping center, although massive, has only one address: 221 Glendale Av.. Each of its seven exits has a giant number on the outside of the building.
(They don't have any numbers on the inside of the building, but they agreed that it was a great idea in response to my letter to them, so will soon.)

How can people meet each other at subway etc. stations without coordinating which of the several exits they're supposed to meet at?

[Dimitar5555]

This particular shopping center, although massive, has only one address: 221 Glendale Av.. Each of its seven exits has a giant number on the outside of the building.

The same thing applies to long residential buildings (example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6936458165). One address, but multiple entrances, each with it's own letter (or number).

block 519, entrance B	block 22, entrance G

[imagico]

Regarding use of ref on entrance=* - overall this is used 426k times and in most countries very sparsely (often on less than 1 percent of entrances) and with poor consistency - either

• duplicating the house number (or part of it)
• some free form descriptive string
• a local abstract identifier of the entrance as shown in the photos here

and the last one is rarely the clearly dominating use.

However, this looks very different in some countries of eastern Europe:

Russia: 277k, 50% of entrances
Ukraine: 37k, 36% of entrances
Finland: 21.6k, 34% of entrances
Bulgaria:7.2k, 41% of entrances
Romania: 4.3k, 28% of entrances

These uses much more consistently represent the third use case so we clearly have a specific use of tagging here focused on a certain region.

If that is because of differences in the geographic reality on the ground (these countries have such entrance numbers and use them while others don't) or because of different mapping practice (other countries include these as part of addr:housenumber) i don't know - input on that would be welcome. @Dimitar5555 - are these entrance identifiers as shown practically considered part of the address, i.e. do you include them when you post a package/letter to someone living there or when you order a pizza?

I am changing the issue title because concretely this is about ref on entrance=* and this seems to be much more about entrance numbers of residential buildings than about public buildings like originally indicated.

[imagico]

See also #740.

[Dimitar5555]

If that is because of differences in the geographic reality on the ground (these countries have such entrance numbers and use them while others don't)

It's a bit of detour but basically the government had to build a lot of housing in big cities and the cheapest and fastest method was using prefabricated medium-rise building. It was also cheaper to build multiple sections of a building next to each other (less outer walls, less insulation, less need for heating).

or because of different mapping practice (other countries include these as part of addr:housenumber)

The building number can also contain letters so you end up with cases like block 32A, entrance A (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4908167177) so you can't include it in addr:housenumber without messing up everything. Also sometimes you can have block 32 with entrances A, B and C and right next to it block 32A with entrance A and B.

are these entrance identifiers as shown practically considered part of the address, i.e. do you include them when you post a package/letter to someone living there or when you order a pizza?

Pretty much always. For a full example, you can have гр. София, ж.к. Люлин 7, бл. 115, вх. Г, ап. 120 which translates to "Sofia city, residential complex Liulin 7, block (building) 115, entrance G, apartment 120". Some buildings reset the apartment numbers for every entrance (so each entrance of a single block has apartments 1-20), others don't (entrance A has 1-20, B has 21-40 and so on).

It's also listed on Bulgarian ID cards.

(That's a specimen that is shared by the Ministry of Interior, the cardholder doesn't exist).
On the right side, on the row above "Height" you have "Knyaz Aleksander Batenberg Blvd., №454, entrance 4a, floor 6 apartment 333".

[imagico]

Thanks for the additional info. My impression is that established mapping practice is severely under-documented here.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Addresses
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:*

do not mention anything about it and

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:entrance

makes an unclear distinction between inner and outer numbers. There apparently was at some point some consideration to introduce addr:entrance:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:AddrN_(2010)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Key:addr:entrance

but that never gained traction.

Regarding use in OSM-Carto - i think there is a pretty good basis to consider rendering ref on entrances - if we can find a way to do so that is not confusing. For #3038 a likely solution would be to render house-numbers differently when on entrance nodes - and it could be considered to show ref then as well - if a way can be found to do this in a non-confusing way (and one that preferably discourages the other uses of ref on entrances - so definitely not by simply concatenating housenumber and ref).

[Dimitar5555]

From https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Key:entrance

RU: Используйте ref=* для обозначения "внутреннего" номера подъезда (не путать с "внешним" адресом, который имеют некоторые подъезды - для него используется addr:housenumber=).
EN: Use ref= to indicate the "internal" entryway number (not to be confused with the "external" address that some entryways have - addr:housenumber=* is used for that).

From https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Tag:entrance%3Dstaircase:

RU: Дополнительные теги
ref=* - номер подъезда
EN: Additional tags
ref=* - entrance number

Also the Bulgarian community has documented it on the forum (https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/topic/94313) but it should definitely go on a more prominent place.