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Missing more syllable like ligatures from Noto Sans Old Hungarian font, and there are non-historic ligatures #1930
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@marekjez86 Marek, may I list all of missing syllable-like ligatures, or ignore this issue, because of that, in several facts I agree with @Kixidevel |
Correct translation of "ró" :"he/she cuts an Ol Hungarian text on a wooden stick with a knife" or "he/she cuts a sign on a wooden stick with a knife" |
@marekjez86 May I complete the syllable like ligature list, or try to resolve this issue. |
Sorry, I omitted a letter: "he/she cuts an Old Hungarian text on a wooden stick with a knife" is the correct. |
@marekjez86 I think it might be start a new font version, isn't it? |
@marekjez86 I collected a list of two-letter syllables with meanings, those would be useful as ligatures: I continue tomorrow.... |
@marekjez86 First I prepare the problems and add the collected syllables. After these steps I continue the list. |
Issue #1985 has similar problems as this issue. Can be improved together. |
It is incredible, that how the Unicode standard is misunderstood... ZWJ gives options to create any ligatures, this is why there are NOT in the standard. Therefore it is absolutely unprofessional to state that if there is no ligature in the Unicode standard, do not develop any ligatures in the actual font. |
Hi, @rovasinfo = Tamás Rumi! |
If you will allow me, I will also work on fonts, with and without ligatures! |
@rovasinfo = Tamás Rumi! Or you want clear ligatureless fonts? I could agree with it. |
Dear @tamasbartos, I really appreciate your effort to create fonts for rovas. If you need proofs of use of certain characters, you can check them. However, the most important feature should be the the compatibility of the current Hungarian alphabet, which alsoc contains dz, dzs, w,x,q,y. Other historical or any ligatures are welcomed. This is a living script. |
Letter x, q, y are at least 400 years old. https://hu.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_(rov%C3%A1s) |
Dz and Dzs are created as ligature after officially adopting these sounds into the latin based Hungarian alphabet. These ligatures followed the change of the alphabeth as early as in 1935. https://hu.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DZ_(rov%C3%A1s) |
You write this by refferring to your own page from your own wikipedia article. |
@rovasinfo = Tamás Rumi! Please read issue #2021 . Impossible to use one ligature activation method (lettercombination) for two meanings and two form. It would be a substandard to use "v"+ZWJ + "v" as "w ligature", the correct using of this combination "vv" (ligature of two "v") |
Exactly. To save copypaste. These facts are facts, you can do the same research work. If you are not familiar or you do not use this script, you have to ask professionals, not amateurs. |
These letters aren't 400 years old in Old Hungarian script.. Or do you know "400 old Hungarian word" used, for example, with letter "x"? |
@tamasbartos, are you really blind to the reality? Do you know who speaks about Kazar letters? (For outsiders: it is a hidden antisemitism). This forum is about to design fonts, I would keep the track on the contemporary use of the Hungarian rovas, so please stop arguing against letters which can be created by ligatures, even they do not have codepoints, but they have history and needed in order to connect the current Hungarian latin alphabet. Thanks. |
Are you historian? I don't think. You are an engineer. Old Hungarian script was phonetic script, as you know. Y replaceable to I or J letters. |
Concerning letters Dz and Dzs. They are not equal to the combination of D+Z, or D+ZS. They represent different sounds. Example: 'kádzománc' and 'madzag' pronounced differently. |
@tamasbartos I agree with you. We really would not need ligatures if dz, dzs, x, y, w, q would have their own codepoints. Concerning my knowledge, it is not a one man show that you may think, we are working together with historians, linguists etc, but from the engineering side, the most important condition for any rovas font is the compatibility with the latin based Hungarian alphabet. |
@rovasinfo Why do you think, that there is a must to make Old Hungarian script compatible with Latin based Hungarian script? Do you think, "cs" letter might be replaceable with "c"+"s"? I know, that it's a stupid example. |
@tamasbartos answers for your questions:
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@rovasinfo You wrote before, that "q","x","y" are 400 years old letters in the Old Hungarian script , which is a lie! |
@rovasinfo That's all right, if you really want those ligatures, I might to remove "therre are non-historic ligatures", if you protest against issue #1374 ! ( Missing Old Hungarian diacritics) |
I do not think that it is our problem to give solution for a situation caused by wrongly encoded script standard, where we spoke about this problem, in 2008. Of course, if you can solve the problem by using special solution, that would be great, for example, using 3 v to represent W ligature (v+ZWJ+v+ZWJ+v). |
The ligatures doesn't require direct codepoints, but your idea might be good. @marekjez86 As I know, the Unicode codepoints, which aren't defined by Unicode, the Noto doesn't owerride. Ligatures might be used just lettercombinations. I know well? |
@marekjez86 I don't know that, you got the previous quick reply for @rovasinfo. If not, please read it in issue #1930 and answer, please. |
@rovasinfo We must to wait answer of @marekjez86 , he is the leader of the project.. As I know he doesn't work at weekend. |
@tamasbartos wrote: @rovasinfo That's all right, if you really want those ligatures, I might to remove "therre are non-historic ligatures", if you protest against issue #1374 ! ( Missing Old Hungarian diacritics) I protested against the accutes. as you requested, I hope you will support the so called non-historic ligatures which are still existing. Thanks. If you ask Andras Tisza, you know very well him, he also open to use these characters silently. |
@rovasinfo Ups! Not I opened this issue, I must ask @marekjez86 ." Ghost" means, that the user clear himself from the github.com. |
@marekjez86 Marek! @rovasinfo would like to associate Old Hungarian capital "W" to u+10CB6, small "w" to u+10CF6, capital "Y" to u+10CB8, small "y" to u+10CF8. If it possible, problems of the "y" and "w" ligatures would be resolved. In that case please remove "and there are non-historic ligatures" text from this issue's caption! |
Thanks for supporting these letters. For DZ and DZS we use these (still empty) codepoints: |
Defect Report
From "Noto Sans Old Hungarian Font" version 2.00.2 missing more syllable like ligatures, most of them have own meanings. https://github.com/googlefonts/noto-fonts/blob/master/unhinted/ttf/NotoSansOldHungarian/NotoSansOldHungarian-Regular.ttf
Mainly missing ligatures:
"ád" means "give" (old form of "ad")
"ál" with joined another word means "false" ("álszakáll")
"hó" means "snow"
"lé" means "liquid", slang: "money", (but "halászlé" means "fish soup" - "halász" : "fisherman" )
"ló" means "horse"
"ró" means "wood with knife mark carving" or "wood with knife carving Old Hungarian letter"
"sí" means "ski"
"só" means "salt"
"úr" means "Lord"
"él" means "he/she lives"
"(disznó)ól" means "pigsty" ("disznó":"pig")
"ár" means "price" (but "ár"+"víz" - "árvíz" = "flood" ,"víz" : "water")
The list is not exhaustive!
Several form of these ligatures:
There are several non-historical ligatures like "qu", "w", "x", "y" - you can activate with Old Hungarian letters "k" + ZWJ + "V",
"v" + ZWJ + "v", "k" + ZWJ + "sz", "j" + "i". these are replaceable with letters and letter sequences:
"qu" (id in font source: uni10CD3_10CEE) with simple, non-ligature "k" +"v".
"w" (id in font source: uni10CEE_10CEE) with simple "v"
"x" (id in font source: uni10CD3_10CE5) with simple, non-ligature "k" + "sz"
"y" (id in font source: uni10CD0_10CD2) with simple letter "i" or "j", depending on the words. It still can made spelling problem, too, because of that, this "ligature" could be generated automatically.
These rules widely used rules for replacing foreign letters "qu", "w", "x", and "y"
Non-Historic letters must be remove, because it uses small groups only.
The "qu", "w" and "x" aren't defined in "dlig" section, so these couldn't be generated automatically, don't make spelling problems.
This "ligatures" in terms of spelling, if we were to accept them, wouldn't be made spelling problems, borrowed only from terms of Latin-based Hungarian spelling.
By terms of spelling Old Hungarian texts' these non-historic "letters" aren't allowed.
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