Can Orcasound imagine a buoy-based low-cost live-listening hydrophone system for all orca signals? #59
Replies: 17 comments 7 replies
-
|
Hydrophone Links: https://www.instructables.com/Lets-Build-Some-World-Class-Hydrophones/ Bioacoustice group in StackExchange: Val''s current phantom-powered preamp circuit which is under development!!: |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Hello Val and Scott |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Hey David, welcome to Orcasound! As we continue our discussion here, you might enjoy learning about Markdown on Github. To save folks without access to Word the trouble of downloading your Word doc and then opening it a compatible program, I used Pandoc online to convert your nice outline into Github markdown (and added headings): Wetsound Project##Things to do
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Thanks Val. I'll try Pandoc |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
This is Scott, Val's son, actually! |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@bonnettde We can definitely help with 2.i.a-b (Hydrophone R&D) and maybe the streaming/analysis side of things, but you will be helping us learn about anchors and buoys! Also, I might add one subsurface challenge: minimizing flow and other noise from the mooring system. I think there are some "tricks" for isolating the hydrophone acoustically, but the impacts of flow noise may depend mostly on where you deploy (Race Passage or Agate Pass harder than on east side of Bainbridge facing main basin of Puget Sound). Possible leads:
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
For the record, from the Internet Archive, here's a version of the old Jupiter Foundation page on the equipment they used to listen for humpbacks back in ~2005...
I have no idea what they used to anchor the sonobuoy, nor how the hydrophone was connected to the transmitter. But in general, I'm very interested in exploring analog-only transmission to shore. If that was easy and fidelity wasn't lost in transmission, then the buoy engineering might be greatly simplified -- effectively moving most of the electronics from the subsurface/buoy to onshore...
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Hi Scott
Thanks for this info. We are hoping to be able to design an in water
package with a smaller footprint than Jupiter and do the A-D onboard then
transmit via wireless to shore. We also will use a Li Ion battery and have
sufficient on board storage for .wav files to be held until the user wants
to download them. Of course this is all in the preliminary stage of
concept design so any info like Jupiter is welcomed.
…On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:29 PM Scott Veirs ***@***.***> wrote:
For the record, from the Internet Archive, here's a version of the old
Jupiter Foundation page on the equipment they used to listen for humpbacks
back in ~2005...
[image: Screenshot 2023-01-28 at 6 08 44 PM]
<https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/14044595/215301050-64fa57b0-04cc-4ba7-88c0-c727613fdce8.png>
I have no idea what they used to anchor the sonobuoy, nor how the
hydrophone was connected to the transmitter. But in general, I'm very
interested in exploring analog-only transmission to shore. If that was easy
and fidelity wasn't lost in transmission, then the buoy engineering might
be greatly simplified -- effectively moving most of the electronics from
the subsurface/buoy to onshore...
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<#59 (comment)>,
or unsubscribe
<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ACEPVXEXFQ3RDUKN4BOZ4U3WUXIXLANCNFSM6AAAAAAUJKX5MY>
.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID:
***@***.***>
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Sounds, good. Two thoughts:
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
We are currently hoping the Raspberry Pi Zero 2W (https://datasheets.raspberrypi.com/rpizero2/raspberry-pi-zero-2-w-product-brief.pdf ) can be set up to accomplish both real time (near) audio to shore and to store .wav files that can be analyzed later. The 2W has a SD sound card slot USB and uses both Bluetooth and 802.11 wireless. With appropriate programming we hope we can set sample rates for A/D at up to 500KHz. Our first priority is to develop a hydrophone that is affordable and has an appropriate sensitivity profile to allow fairly high sample rates. I like your Orcasound solution and will look it over. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@dbainj1 This is another place to try to push forward on an Orcasound buoyed solution! |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@bonnettde What radio technology are y'all considering for your first prototype? For the Sunset Bay hydrophone site we might get by with one of the wireless mics used for sports and entertainment events. One option is the Rode Go II wireless mic that claims to have a range of about 250 meters. Glazer's Rentals in Seattle will rent one of these (for testing) at a rate of $20/day. Other options they rent for are made by DJI and Sennheiser |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Hey @bonnettde and @dbainj1 -- have you all seen this buoy/drifter project for real time classification of underwater noise from vessel? Looks like some interesting components and DIY ideas (e.g. PVC pipe for waterproof housing)... |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
On the ride home from our first visit to the BARN, @dbainj1 Dave mentioned long ago using a pager to turn on/off a buoyed acoustic project. It looks like there is a similar low bitrate (e.g. texting or walkie talkie) technology called LoRa that might be of interest — https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LoRa — e.g. for waking up a buoy? Not sure they will deliver the promised 5 km messaging and 300 meter “crystal clear” audio transmission, but this active MessengerPi Kickstarter looks interesting! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/diytech/messengerpi-lora-based-messenger-and-walkie-talkie |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
If we assume that we need to accurately transmit sounds with 16 bit resolution at frequencies up to 20kHz, what distance does the WiFi need to reach? Is it line of sight? There's a big difference between 300m and 5km. Lora is viable for low bandwidth pathways but I don't think it is suitable for the real-time transmission of high resolution sound |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
The distance needed will vary with site. About 500', give or take, would be a good initial goal. Line of sight can typically be assumed. When line of sight isn't available, it's likely that relays could be set up that allow line of sight.We've looked at FM radio, which requires a license to go over 200'. Bluetooth is another option, but probably won't reach 500'. Wi-Fi is an option that's good for miles, if you can keep the antennas lined up. Wide band FM is another technology that could go to higher frequencies. A mobile hotspot can work where there is good service. Satellite Internet is another option, although expensive and typically limited to less than 3 Mb per second.Of course, if you have a local resident who just needs to get to the end of the dock, the distance could be far shorter. We've had one application where we needed to connect Wi-Fi a few miles away (it worked most, but not all the time).Radar is a possible source of interference at Wi-Fi frequencies.I'd suggest developing a system that uses technology you're comfortable working with. We'd apply it where it can work. If you develop longer range solutions in the future, we can apply them at more challenging sites.DaveSent from Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: klaplain ***@***.***> Date: 11/22/23 1:35 PM (GMT-08:00) To: orcasound/orcanode ***@***.***> Cc: dbainj1 ***@***.***>, Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [orcasound/orcanode] Can Orcasound imagine a buoy-based low-cost
live-listening hydrophone system for all orca signals? (Discussion #59)
If we assume that we need to accurately transmit sounds with 16 bit resolution at frequencies up to 20kHz, what distance does the WiFi need to reach? Is it line of sight?
—Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe.You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@klaplain yes I agree with @dbainj1 that a great initial design goal for a wireless orca buoy would be:
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
A Google search yesterday revealed this interesting effort to build a smart buoy for Orcasound! (I wasn't aware of this til now.) I'm new to cellular IoT communication schemes, but it appears the chip on the LTE extension board may support: "CAT-M1 R14 with DL/UL speeds of 588/1119 Kbps" Especially with some lossy compression, it seems that upload bandwidth might be sufficient... |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Yep. For distances of a few 100 feet, WiFi/Bluetooth would be OK. But for longer distances LTE is a better solution. Data rates should support the 16bit/20kHz you need. There would be a subscription cost for the LTE data link (estimate $100/year). The Spresense Sony board is a great way to test for viability. An alternative BARN strategy would be to reuse the existing BARN preamplifier & STM32 ADC and to pair this with a board such as the Adafruit FONA 3G Cellular board. (https://www.adafruit.com/product/2687) |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@dthaler This is a good thread for adding ideas regarding transmission to land from a future buoyed solution... |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Bridge-AdaLov-Multipoint-Outdoor/dp/B0BKSM4NV1/ref=sr_1_3_pp is an example of a wireless bridge with a range of like 2 miles, though it has a 60 degree directional window so requires it to stay approximately pointed in a general direction. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Dave,
I'm familiar with this technology. We used it to transmit signals from Point Robinson across the sound to Des Moines for a while.
One of the issues is power. If this is provided by POE, that defeats the purpose of going wireless. However, if we use solar, wireless would be beneficial.
We ran into a couple problems using it. One, it needs to be line of sight, and that was blocked at high tide (this won't be a problem at the new site I mentioned). The other was throughput. It dropped off at times of day when lots of other people were using wireless (less likely to be a problem at the new site). Radar from passing ships also seemed to interfere with the signal, since radar and wi-fi use the same frequency.
When it worked well, it was far superior to the wi-fi hotspot we switched to. However, the project manager opted to stick with the hotspot due to the intermittent nature of cross-sound wi-fi as we implemented it. I would have tried to move the antennas to maintain line of sight at high tide, and hoped that that would have limited the other problems.
Anyway, the new site is unusual in that the protected marine vegetation is fairly limited. The flat terrain means you could walk out to the buoy to tend it at low tide, or reach it in a boat at high tide. A wi-fi bridge is definitely an option, whether it's pointed at a neighbor's house or across the sound.
…--Dave
________________________________
From: Dave Thaler ***@***.***>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2024 10:48 AM
To: orcasound/orcanode ***@***.***>
Cc: David Bain ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***>
Subject: Re: [orcasound/orcanode] Can Orcasound imagine a buoy-based low-cost live-listening hydrophone system for all orca signals? (Discussion #59)
https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Bridge-AdaLov-Multipoint-Outdoor/dp/B0BKSM4NV1/ref=sr_1_3_pp is an example of a wireless bridge with a range of like 2 miles, though it has a 60 degree directional window so requires it to stay approximately pointed in a general direction.
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub<#59 (reply in thread)>, or unsubscribe<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AWBBIJ3QU2T2EELURKKIYTDZN7SIPAVCNFSM6AAAAABLM6WCXWVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43URDJONRXK43TNFXW4Q3PNVWWK3TUHMYTAMJUGA4TMMA>.
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Interesting Blue IQ OpenEar project that's integrating hydrophone in solar-powered buoys on eastern seaboard (mostly for NARW detection?) -- https://oceannews.com/frontline/check-the-tech/redefining-acoustic-monitoring-an-exclusive-look-at-blueiqs-openear-hydrophone/ |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
From @dbainj1 back on September email -- On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 22:40 David Bain [email protected] wrote: I've been looking into communications from a buoy. I've got two preferred candidates. My first choice is wi-fi. To get extra range, I think we could attach an omni-directional antenna to the Pi with 9 dB of gain. We could put a directional antenna on the computer on shore. The gain for the onshore antenna will depend on its directionality. The beam shape we want will depend on how far the buoy can move. I.e., the mooring line will need to be long enough to get to the surface at high tide plus wave height, which will give it a lot of slack to move around at low tide. It will be easy enough to do the trigonometry to figure out how wide the vertical and horizontal beams need to be. If the antennas don't provide enough gain for the distance, we could go to powered wireless bridges, but they'll require extra power on the buoy. The other approach is to go 5G. We'd probably need a wireless home internet plan, which would cost more than piggybacking on an existing internet plan. That would probably increase power requirements by a couple Watts. But, we'd be independent of shore infrastructure. I'll need to look into whether we can get away with a cheap cell phone, or we'd need a more expensive hot spot device. From what I've found so far, it seems like hotspots can handle more devices, which is a feature we don't need, so a phone might be fine. FM didn't make the cut because of licensing requirements for going more than 200'. Satellite would probably be limited to 2-3 Mbs, which would probably be ok for lossy audio that's good enough for OrcaHello and Orcasound, but probably not if we want 24 bits at 192kHz with lossless compression. Similarly, we probably won't get the bandwidth we'd like to have with Bluetooth, but we might get enough. As for power, a Pi wants 15 watts. That's 360 Whr/day. A 100W solar panel should provide an average of 500Whr/day, which would be enough, but I'm guessing we'll need to supplement power over the winter. A battery the size of my bike battery would get us through a day, But, we'd be looking at maybe 250 AH for a 12V battery to be sure we'd make it through a week without any supplemental power. Windmills that produce 400-800W are reasonably sized, but won't produce much, if any power, when the air is relatively still. Tidal power could be pretty reliable, but would probably foul over time, so wouldlikely be high maintenance. I haven't come across any small-scale wave power generators. That could be a project for BARN. Thermal power would be interesting if we could pull it off. Stirling engines can generate power with pretty low temperature differences, so if the computer gets up to 50 C and sea water is around 10 C, we could probably recover some energy that way. I'll get back to you separately with thoughts on the non-electrical parts of the buoy. --Dave |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
Let's discuss a buoyed solution. Mostly we have been using cabled deployment strategies, but in some otherwise-promising locations a low-cost offshore (probably buoyed**) hydrophone system would be handy...
Pointed questions:
AKA preliminary design constraints for awesome design/engineer groups like the Bainbridge BARN
** Orcasound is totally open to other deployment strategies, but we are assuming for now that the tides and narrow channels of the Salish Sea rule out other extant approaches for near/continuous PAM, like wave-gliders, autonomous boats, sea gliders, etc.
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
All reactions