[sent16] interpretation of -muş değil

[jonorthwash]

I get the impression that there's some special interpretation of okumuş değil, as opposed to okumamış. Could someone explain it?

Also, if relevant after that, is it an anterior or evidential/mirative -mIş?

(In Kyrgyz, a plain anterior negative happens to have a similar structure, окуган эмес, whereas an evidential/mirative (also anterior) reading is structurally more similar to okumamış: окубаптыр.)

[furkanakkurt1335]

We have updated this sentence to be "Ayşe bu kitabı okumamış değil."

[coltekin]

First, as I understand, the main intention of the original sentence Ayşe bu kitabı okumuş değil was to discuss how to annotate negation with değil (or other alternatives like yok/жок). So the double negation meets the original aim, and the alternative Ayşe bu kitabı okumamış değil resolves the main issue.

On the other hand, we have discussed this issue quite a bit, and I am still not sure if I can explain the usage difference between negation with değil and negation with -mA. I will try to summarize my impression of the difference, while my memory is fresh from the earlier discussions.

Without context, I think this is not different from simple negation with -mA (Ayşe bu kitabı okumamış). The context difference I can come up with is the following.

(1) Ayşe bu kitabı okumamış. Diğerini okumuş. 'Ayşe didn't read this book. She read the other one.'
or
(2) Ayşe bu kitabı okumamış. Ali okumuş. 'Ayşe didn't read this book. Ali read it.'

sounds perfectly fine, but

(3) ?? Ayşe bu kitabı okumuş değil. Diğerini okumuş.
(4) ?? Ayşe bu kitabı okumuş değil. Ali okumuş.

does not sound correct. I am not sure if it can fully be explained with the scope of the negation by different means, but in (3) and (4) it seems we cannot simply negate parts of the statement. The negation applies to the whole statement. Because of this we found the translation "It is not the case that Ayşe read this book." as a more structurally-conservative translation.

In case it helps clarify, I also want to throw examples of "local negation" with değil. Structure is really different, but it may show that to negate something with değil we need to make it the predicate.

(5) Bu kitabı okuyan Ayşe değil. Ali. 'It is not Ayşe who read this book. (It is) Ali.
(6) Ayşenin okuduğu bu kitap değil. Masadaki. 'This is not the book Ayşe read. It is the one on the table'

[jonorthwash]

This is great; thanks, Çağrı!

What about following sentences where the entire predicate is replaced? E.g.:

• Ayşe bu kitabı okumuş değil. Filmi gördü.
• Ayşe bu kitabı okumamış. Filmi gördü.

Examples (5) and (6) are a lot easier to find structural equivalents or in other Turkic languages, since they don't involve verbal negation.